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dewen

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PostSubject: Cover Saves   Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:13 pm

Being out of 40K for a bit, I found myself struggling with the approach some players took with the ruins at EGC.  Most of the tables had ruins for terrain.  The shop has the ruins attached to bases with grit.  Players would play with just a tip toe of a model on the ruin base and gain a cover save.  Looking back, that should have been a 5+ (area terrain) cover and not a 4+ (ruin cover).  My understanding of gaining cover save of (4+) from a ruin is only if the model is gaining cover from behind the ruin wall.  So the MC on the outside of the ruin with its tip toe on the ruin base would only gain a 5+ cover for area terrain.

Do I have this right?

Does a vehicle in open terrain only gain a 5+ cover if it is 25% or more obscured?
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Exitus Acta Probat

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PostSubject: Re: Cover Saves   Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:55 pm

Standard rules state TLOS(outside of AT).
Vehicles/MC require 25%.
Unfortunately, your confusion appears to stem from a lack of defining at the beginning of the game.
IMHO, ruins should require actual occupation, not just toe-ing onto a base that isn't even required to define it (as a woods might).
I don't believe a vehicle should have benefited by the rules...
That, again IMHO, was a relatively questionable 'milking' of a conditional advantage outside the spirit of both rules and modeling intent.
Even so, were you to grant the area terrain for'toe-ing' it in, it's a terrain type that follows its base type at that point.
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dewen

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PostSubject: Re: Cover Saves   Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:23 am

From the rulebook...

Pg 18
"Determing Cover Saves

If,when you come to allocate a Wound, the target model's body (as defined on page 8 ) is at least 25% obscurred from the point of view of at least one firer, Wounds allocated to the model receive a cover save."

I answered one of my questions pg 75
"Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside area terrain. The 25% rule given above takes precedence."

Pg 91
"Area terrain ... Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether of not they have 25% obscurred. Models that go to ground ..."

I faced a Tau player in the 3rd round who placed a tank in area terrain and was rolling cover saves.

Pg 98 "Ruins with Base

A ruin might be mounted on a base, decorated with rubble, and other debris. In this case, treat the base as area terrain."
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Exitus Acta Probat

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PostSubject: Re: Cover Saves   Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:49 am

Cool.
Thanks... I was 'blending' editions again.
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Edge

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PostSubject: Re: Cover Saves   Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:00 am

Did his vehicle have an upgrade to give cover or jink save?

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Crawling Chaos

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PostSubject: Re: Cover Saves   Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:25 am

Tau tanks just have to move to gain a jink save. The Disruption Pod gives +1 to this.

Talking to Makari the other day, he said Stronghold assault changed the cover save granted by the base of a ruins to rubble or something. The new rule is 4+ in any part of the ruin now.
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dewen

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PostSubject: Re: Cover Saves   Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:17 am

Edge wrote:
Did his vehicle have an upgrade to give cover or jink save?

The vehicle was a Tau player and he mentioned an upgrade, but he did not call it a jink save. He was using area terrain and taking a cover save.

Exitus Acta Probat wrote:
Standard rules state TLOS(outside of AT).
Vehicles/MC require 25%.
...

EAP thanks for posting. I cannot find the MC 25% rule.
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Makari

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PostSubject: Re: Cover Saves   Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:18 am

The Bases on the buildings are rubble area terrain. 4+ area terrain as defined by the BRB and better stated in stronghold assault.
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dewen

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PostSubject: Re: Cover Saves   Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:19 am

Crawling Chaos wrote:

...

Talking to Makari the other day, he said Stronghold assault changed the cover save granted by the base of a ruins to rubble or something.  The new rule is 4+ in any part of the ruin now.

That would explain the way Keith, the Tyranids player who took first, was playing.
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dewen

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PostSubject: Re: Cover Saves   Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:23 am

Makari wrote:
The Bases on the buildings are rubble area terrain.   4+ area terrain as defined by the BRB and better stated in stronghold assault.

BRB states

Pg 98 "Ruins with Base

A ruin might be mounted on a base, decorated with rubble, and other debris. In this case, treat the base as area terrain."

and area terrain is 5+

so now stronghold assault says rubble is 4+  Question 
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Exitus Acta Probat

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PostSubject: Re: Cover Saves   Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:31 am

Dew, my addled brain was blending editions again.
The 25 percent rule is standard for models of any sort. Explicitly stated for vehicles regarding facing, but all other models apply.
The difference is, monstrous creatures can now benefit from area terrain in a similar fashion to infantry, so they benefit simply from standing in it. Unlike last edition.

IMHO it is a little excessive to grant a 4 plus simply for standing on a painted base, Sean.
You might want to throttle that back a little bit (ie; 5+)?
all that succeeds in doing is granting even more strength to armies, or dominant OP units, that ignore cover...rather than strengthening maneuver or assault.
I am saying this primarily because there is so much variability in the size, designs and functions of bases that people put terrain on. Sometimes it is simply an expedient 4 deployment and move-ability...sometimes it is modeling or function...and sometimes it is simply structural for stability while building the model to begin with. These factors can cause confusion.

Regardless, it might be a good idea to make general terrain announcements at the beginning of any event for players who are unfamiliar with EGC conventions/contracts.  BRB defines it in two different directions, which can cause some muddying of the water.
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Makari

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PostSubject: Re: Cover Saves   Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:47 am

Point taken Mike and I don't disagree with you but orks need that cover!!! even though tau strip away... lol.
However it is rubble and the BRB states 4+. Ruins with bases are considered area terrain.

Yes area terrain is 5+, unless it is rubble 4+.

Stronghold described it better as to when to use it which I beleive (don't have book on me atm) actually stated ruins floor bases were considered rubble... and reiterated the 4+ cover.

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Exitus Acta Probat

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PostSubject: Re: Cover Saves   Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:56 am

Makari wrote:
...stated ruins floor bases were considered rubble... and reiterated the 4+ cover.


That, IIRC, is more in reference to the 'floor' base (ie; the bottom floor under the footprint of a building), so that it is always clear when someone is 'under' the footprint.  This stems from the design of modern GW plastic buildings, which do not actually have a 'base' (per-se).  
Designed as a rule to clarify if a model benefits from a building that looks like an 'L' (or some such) when being engaged from behind the 'L' as has had a structural support 'base' modeled underneath to keep it from tipping (or define the footprint in the case of one that has not).
It was not (IMHO) intended to take a building that has a 'perimeter' base to increase its over board impact/footprint, which is the unfortunate side effect of a great deal of home-built buildings/expanded stability bases.
I have the book in question in reach, but have a toddler in hand, so will look further in a moment.

It always becomes muddy when modeling and gaming come together, which is why an initial announcement to clarify all conventions prior to event start (and/or a primer printed/posted) is always a good idea.

Orks don't need cover, orks need to WAAAAAAAGH forward and chop...filthy 'oomie tactikz don' werk here...
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dewen

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PostSubject: Re: Cover Saves   Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:58 am

Well said EAP.  The general announcement is a definite must.

Let me rant ... 4+ cover for a oval base creature with its toe on the outside corner of a building sucks. It does not seem to support the spirit of the game. Who cares about maneuvering, just get a hair of the edge of your model's base to the 1/16" lip of the terrain base and you have a 4+ cover.  

If that is how EGC is going to run tourneys, there needs to be less ruins on the table.  My games had 10-11 pieces of ruins and 1 or 2 area terrain. The terrain gave both my second and third opponent a significant advantage.
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Edge

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PostSubject: Re: Cover Saves   Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:25 pm

I believe a good start to this would be at your next CAG meeting you decide on a definitive and concrete cover save modifiers two different terrain pieces. standardize now what will be used in the next two CAG primers.

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PostSubject: Re: Cover Saves   Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:42 am

These will most certainly be addressed for the up coming tournies!!!
I dislike the use of a toe in giving cover.
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Edge

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PostSubject: Re: Cover Saves   Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:41 am

Loophole advantage that is exploited.
MC treated as infantry. Crossing any point of terrain is 'going through cover'.
Reduce the base size or standardize terrain physical models used.

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