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Warmonger

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PostSubject: DE Questions   Sun May 08, 2011 10:08 pm

With the CAGBash looming and the GK's seemly to be a factor to deal with I'm including the Crucible of Malediction in my list. If your not familiar it's a one use item that causes all psychics within 3D6 to pass a leadership test or be removed from play with no saves of any kind.

Not great but not bad against GK's I think. Besides it's the only psychic protection/defense/whatever item that they have.

My questions is this:

1) A GK transport that is a psycher, fails it's leadership test will it take the unit inside with it when it is removed from play?

2) If the transport passes it's test do the models inside need to test? This is not an ability or a p-power but a piece of wargear.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Sun May 08, 2011 10:20 pm

I posited this on another forum immediately after the preview copy hit shelves...

Using 'Lukas the Trickster' as a precedent, and his stasis bomb function(if tank shocked),
my take is...
a loaded transport fails, and is removed from table...all attendant on board units are removed as well.

It may not be RAI, nor (in the long run) FAQ'd in this fashion, but it is the only RAW precedent we have to follow up with.

I know, with the advent of GK, I'm toting a Crucible in all my armies from now on! Twisted Evil

(this was a forum for a VERY competitive gaming group, who has jumped on the GK train as well...as many of us have...as I have...and they wholly accepted the 'Trickster-bomb' precedent as the defining rule).

appropriate FAQ quote: "Q. If The Last Laugh removes a transport vehicle that has
models embarked, are the embarked models also lost? (p52)
A. Yes."

as that is the only other power that can remove a loaded transport from play...

my vote is;
"1) A GK transport that is a psycher, fails it's leadership test will it take the unit inside with it when it is removed from play? "

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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Sun May 08, 2011 10:48 pm

I agree... the unit would be screwed.

But you'd better get a ruling from the T.O. first. Send Sean a PM to find out.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Mon May 09, 2011 9:55 am

Sorry to tell you DE players...

GK transport are not psykers...they may take a psychic test via the pilot but the vehicle is not a psyker.
Crucible doesn't work on them.

via B/C-
--As the Dark Eldar Crucible of Malediction forces a Leadership test, are Grey Knight vehicles effected by this? If they are and they fail, are they removed from play? If the vehicle is also a Transport, what happens to any embarked units? Are they also removed from play?

No, vehicles would not be effected. They only have leadership values for the purpose of psychic tests as stated in the Psychic Pilot rule in the Grey Knight codex. Pg 21

Until an FAQ comes out on it I would play it like this...

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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Mon May 09, 2011 3:25 pm

Edge;
I am going to contest that email's validity as a ruling based on RAW...
AND based on inconsistencies from them (rules-boyz) in the past.
(note; I am not contesting RAI...and they may rule in the FAQ, for balance purposes, otherwise).

based on the wording of psychic pilot, and crucible of mal.
Psychic Pilot;
"A vehicle with this rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If the vehicle suffers a Perils of the Warp...."

Crucible of Mal;
"...a model with a 'CoM' may choose to open it instead of firing. Every psyker within 3d6" of the bearer must pass a leadership test..."

Now, I can see the argument...as a vehicle with the p-pilot rule has JUST that listed under their special rules, not psyker; BUT, referring to the PP rule the vehicle is 'treated as being a psyker'...admittedly, and this is where the premise can be chinked at, it goes on to say 'for the purposes of'...but then it goes on to allow said vehicle to suffer 'PoW'.

I have issues with the precedent it sets up...you can be a psyker, but NOT a psyker?
So will this be ANOTHER hit against Shadows in the Warp (this being of GREAT concern for me as a 'Nid player) or other such psyker-interactive abilities/etc?
How about Culexi?
If we go this far off of RAW, we start having situational breakdowns...and lends me to believe the answer you were sent was kneejerk, and gut driven...as opposed to as well thought out/cross-referenced as it should have been.

Now all THAT being said, I wouldn't force it on an opponent who was being adamant (unless he was being a TFG)...but the RAW supports it (IMHO) moreso than the email/Rules-Boyz response.
And prior to FAQ release, I would rule it functioning (as I have put forward) in an event I was running...not that THAT particular circumstance is liable to arise prior to the FAQ release, but we'll see.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Mon May 09, 2011 4:33 pm

(and to take the ultimate douchebuggery step, I'm going to 'reply' to myself)

after re-reading the key sentence, I am even further convinced of the RAW of the argument...

"A vehicle with this rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods." (emph mine)

this sentence is the answer.

a vehicle with this rule is treated as being a psyker...and leadership 10 for the purposes of P-tests and P-hoods.
no comma, with intent to parse or connect phrases.

It is stating the 'vehicle is a psyker', and then going on to state that the vehicles 'is ldr 10 for the purposes of ptests and phoods', which is the statement allowing the vehicle to take p-tests, as they have no ldr value.
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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Mon May 09, 2011 9:04 pm

Sorry, I have to disagree solely on the basis that 'Psyker' is not in the text for the vehicle.
P-Pilot does not one make a Psyker.

Crucible only affects Psykers...

Same argument for Culexis...how many extra shots when in range of a GKSS? One...not the number of models in the squad. Brotherhood of Psykers dictates this outcome.

I posted the email just as a confirmation of what I thought when I read the Codex.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Mon May 09, 2011 9:25 pm

"A vehicle with this rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1)"

sorry, to me that is pretty clear.
from the perspective of rules interactions, unless otherwise stated, 'treated as being' is akin to/the same as 'counts as', is 'counted as'...(etc, etc, etc).

all examples of rule wording that we take interchangeably to mean 'same as'(regarding other rules interactions).
This is partially behind the premise of our argument about Coteaz/Henchmen squads.
If we accept we use this argument for one set of rules, we are forced to accept it for another.

With 'Psychic Pilot' in the special rules (where psyker would normally go), and 'treated as being a psyker' in the rules section describing 'Psychic Pilot'...I don't think we have much choice, or we have to begin re-examining a great deal of 'assumptions' with regards to all circumstances of 'counts as' (et al).

NOW,
that being said...I can see them ruling against this in the FAQ for a few reasons...
unlike the 'trickster-bomb', the act of 'removing the model from play' with crucible, is not an actual 'act of destruction'...but a way to sidestep things like saves, FNP and Eternal Warrior...it's a mechanic that is yet to be clearly defined (as they are trying with things like the USRs).
If they chose to take a truly guiding hand in the FAQ, they would treat it simply as 'vehicle destroyed' (fluff explanation; the psychically bound crew's brain(s) are wholly overwhelmed and shorted out)...or support the 'removed' side with fluff (crew loses such control, their minds open a warp-rift that sucks them in)...being Space Marines, they will probably FAQ in favor of transport/GK, but we'll see.

I CAN see 'model removed' becoming clearer in the next edition, a 'core' mechanic (so to speak) as something similar in MTG did when 'buried' 'destroyed' (etc) became clearly defined and separate from 'removed from play'.

Until then, it's going to be a case by case FAQ call.
Right now, without FAQ, we have RAW and precedent to operate with...and that is (IMHO) the current RAW of it.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Mon May 09, 2011 10:15 pm

Edge wrote:


Same argument for Culexis...how many extra shots when in range of a GKSS? One...not the number of models in the squad. Brotherhood of Psykers dictates this outcome.

I posted the email just as a confirmation of what I thought when I read the Codex.

Brotherhood of psykers further goes on to define why, as it is the 'foci' of their ability, and how the foci is targeted by specific attacks in question...The squad is a psyker, it just has one foci...if the leader is dead, a single model becomes said foci randomly(if dealing with PoW OR psychic attack).

also, wasn't questioning WHY you posted it, or the veracity of your motivation...just that I don't agree with the external assessment or rationale behind it. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Mon May 09, 2011 11:38 pm

I hadn't realised there was that much of a debate over this. pale

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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Tue May 10, 2011 5:21 am

Alright, let me see if I can convey my thought in some articulated manner this morning on some coffee...

GK p. 21
Psychic Pilot
'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If the vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.'

Psyker Mastery Levels
'Codex: Grey Knights uses Mastery Levels, shown in brackets after the Psyker special rule, to determine how many psychic powers a character can use each turn. For each Mastery Level a character has, he can use one psychic power per turn.'

GK p.33
Fortitude
The Grey Knight pilot triggers the vehicle's psycho-reactive armor plating, recalibrating its systems. This power may be used in the Grey Knights Movement phase. If the Psychic test is successful, any crew shaken and crew stunned results already on the vehicle are nullified and no longer apply.'

Note: The vehicle entry does not contain 'Psyker' under the Special Rules of the entry.

Looking at Psychic Pilot alone there might be an argument, maybe. You have to take all three of the above together to identify the context of the vehicle's ability. It is a Psychic Power that is 'turned on' if you will solely for the purposes of Fortitiude.

I akin this to 'turning on' a powered magnetron. In the 'off state' it is not magnetic. In the 'on state' it will attract everything within a radius that is metal.

The vehicle itself is not a Psyker (as the absence of the entry identifies this) but is able to be 'turned on' to use a psycho-reactive element via a Psychic Pilot.

I believe this is poor wording on GW's part (as always) to try to identify the 'action being taken' by the pilot upon the vehicle. They could have just said the 'pilot recalibrates the armor, blah blah' and left it at that.

They had to further identify for us how this action integrated into the brb rules by giving the action a qualified stat foundation - Psyker Mastery Level 1 and Leadership 10 - solely for the purpose of performing the action. Meaning that it uses a statline of 10 for P-Hoods and PoW and can only use the Fortitude power once per turn.

DE p.60
Crucible of Malediction*
'...Once per game, in the Shooting phase, a model with a Crucible of Malediction may choose to open it instead of firing. Every psyker within 3D6" of the bearer must pass a Leadership test or be removed from play as they go stark raving mad. No saves of any kind are allowed.'

This identifies for us the RAW that it affects PSYKERS, the vehicle is not a psyker.
This identifies for us the affect on the psyker...can a vehicle go stark raving mad?

Now the question I would have is:
1- Does the Crucible affect the squad inside the vehicle?
After the precedent was set for Nids, the answer is 'no'.

Taken out of context and looked at individually I could see the potential for your argument for affecting the vehicle. Taken together and in context, the argument against affecting vehicles is clearly identified as 'no'.

Your turn Laughing

Oh, and don't test my virility! Razz

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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Tue May 10, 2011 6:38 am

Edge wrote:
Alright, let me see if I can convey my thought in some articulated manner this morning on some coffee...

GK p. 21
Psychic Pilot
'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. If the vehicle suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.'

Psyker Mastery Levels
'Codex: Grey Knights uses Mastery Levels, shown in brackets after the Psyker special rule, to determine how many psychic powers a character can use each turn. For each Mastery Level a character has, he can use one psychic power per turn.'

GK p.33
Fortitude
The Grey Knight pilot triggers the vehicle's psycho-reactive armor plating, recalibrating its systems. This power may be used in the Grey Knights Movement phase. If the Psychic test is successful, any crew shaken and crew stunned results already on the vehicle are nullified and no longer apply.'

It's not a context issue, it's a statement of rules issue.

it comes back to, every time, the simple statement;

"A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker"

Edge wrote:
Note: The vehicle entry does not contain 'Psyker' under the Special Rules of the entry.

This is the only point where an argument can be made supporting the 'no it doesn't' take...and is immediately taken back off it's foundation with the simple statement I made above "is treated as".

Mastery Levels are simply a method of defining how powerful the 'psyker' is (in a similar vein to upgrading to epistolary, etc.

The fortitiude power descriptor you are putting forth is the mechanism by which the p-power functions, not an exception to the psychic rule. the descriptor portion (reactive armour etc) is merely fluff, and functions fine if taken without the 'fluff' sentence... "This power may be used in the Grey Knights Movement phase. If the Psychic test is successful, any crew shaken and crew stunned results already on the vehicle are nullified and no longer apply"(emph mine).


Edge wrote:
Looking at Psychic Pilot alone there might be an argument, maybe. You have to take all three of the above together to identify the context of the vehicle's ability. It is a Psychic Power that is 'turned on' if you will solely for the purposes of Fortitiude.

But the context of its function is not the argument...though maybe a string of RAI discussion to avoid 'removal' of both the vehicle and unit aboard, it's not a RAW argument to prevent the function of the CoM.

Edge wrote:
I akin this to 'turning on' a powered magnetron. In the 'off state' it is not magnetic. In the 'on state' it will attract everything within a radius that is metal.

Excepting that this particular rationale can be applied to any 'psyker' with this reasoning. Similar to the argument (from older dexes, that a psyker isn't one unless you buy it a power...if it is, it is...if it isn't, it isn't).

Edge wrote:
The vehicle itself is not a Psyker (as the absence of the entry identifies this) but is able to be 'turned on' to use a psycho-reactive element via a Psychic Pilot.

Now here's the rub for the RAI argument, the one I happen to agree with...the CREW is...but they have no method of differentiating the two (in the rules as now). ALL GK are psykers...hence my posit that it should be reduced to Vehicle Destroyed (or immobilized works too)...as the crew is fried.

Edge wrote:
I believe this is poor wording on GW's part (as always) to try to identify the 'action being taken' by the pilot upon the vehicle. They could have just said the 'pilot recalibrates the armor, blah blah' and left it at that.

They had to further identify for us how this action integrated into the brb rules by giving the action a qualified stat foundation - Psyker Mastery Level 1 and Leadership 10 - solely for the purpose of performing the action. Meaning that it uses a statline of 10 for P-Hoods and PoW and can only use the Fortitude power once per turn.

And I see it both as part of your first statement, and the OPPOSITE of your second statement (here). In a similar vein to creating issues (like the Libby Dread), they have created a unique unit...that needs wording to encompass its function in a rules-set that doesn't 'allow' it...only by the breakdown (IMHO), the RAW of it is that they are defining how a psyker...that does not exist in the psyker rules of the BRB...functions uniquely.

Edge wrote:
DE p.60
Crucible of Malediction*
'...Once per game, in the Shooting phase, a model with a Crucible of Malediction may choose to open it instead of firing. Every psyker within 3D6" of the bearer must pass a Leadership test or be removed from play as they go stark raving mad. No saves of any kind are allowed.'

This identifies for us the RAW that it affects PSYKERS, the vehicle is not a psyker.
This identifies for us the affect on the psyker...can a vehicle go stark raving mad?

For your last query, no...but the crew CAN.
for your first statement, per my 'treated as' argument...just like Coteaz's Henchmen...etc...yes, it is (based on the current rules-set that does NOT allow...for simplicity...the separation of crew&vehicle).

Edge wrote:
Now the question I would have is:
1- Does the Crucible affect the squad inside the vehicle?
After the precedent was set for Nids, the answer is 'no'.

I never said the Crucible does...the argument does not stem from that, but the ONLY rules precedent we have (in the entire game) that involves the removal of a transport that has a mounted unit on board.
With that, as our only RAW precedent, they are removed with it (with the assumption the RAW chain supports removal...again, for balance, I think RAI will follow a different path...but we cannot speculate RAI...we have to follow RAW until FAQ gives us the answer).

Edge wrote:
Taken out of context and looked at individually I could see the potential for your argument for affecting the vehicle. Taken together and in context, the argument against affecting vehicles is clearly identified as 'no'.

It isn't, though.
There is no other context.
The rule IS the rule, so to speak. All the following rules depend on the single interpretation.
Crucible of Mal relies on whether a unit (in its AOE) is a psyker of some type.
Psyker mastery levels defines a GK psyker's relative power (in game terms).
Psychic Pilot states a vehicle with this rule is 'treated as' a psyker.
The latter DEFINES the parameters of the former two...the former two do nothing but tell us HOW they interact with the latter(or how the latter functions)...and are wholly dependent on the latter's definition.

Edge wrote:
Your turn Laughing

Oh, and don't test my virility! Razz

I said your VERACITY!!! ya GIT! Wink

and taken.... Razz
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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Tue May 10, 2011 9:01 am

My only issue with your argument is that you continue to truncate the P-Pilot.
Psychic Pilot states a vehicle with this rule is 'treated as' a psyker.
There is more to it...

There is no 'Psyker' in the entry. That alone is enough to satify the 'no' argument.

I would have to take the TO's ruling, but if they say 'yes' I would have to stand by my argument.
Casual game...it would be a 'no' without even a roll-off IMHO.

Can't wait for the damn FAQ for this 'dex.
I think I will wait until the FAQ comes out before I field them in a tourney.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Tue May 10, 2011 9:21 am

I'm not 'truncating' it for making my point...I'm simply saving typing time/space.
I have already explained that all-after the 'and' is merely a mechanism to define how something that has no rule-set in the core book (veh psychic power) canfunction...feel free to replace the whole entry, if u wish...in context with that statement, it matters little. Smile

(Note; I'm on the road, so don't take any shortness-of-answer, as shortness...not being snippy). Smile
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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Tue May 10, 2011 7:29 pm

Well it definiely needs a FAQ from GW I think thats apparent. So until then we will have to deal with whatever the TO decides. I have sent the questions to Makari and am waiting on his answer. Regardless of the answer ML members should deal with it accordingly which is is to say without whinning and crying until an official FAQ is released. This may result in different TO's ruleing it different and so we must deal on a tournament to tournament situation. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Tue May 10, 2011 8:05 pm

Warmonger wrote:
Regardless of the answer ML members should deal with it accordingly which is is to say without whining and crying .

certainly...as is proper...

though I reserve the right to whine(like a little girl) 'til doomsday if the FAQ comes back a resounding 'NO'... Razz
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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Wed May 11, 2011 12:00 am

You can whine and complain all you like on the forum thats one of the things it's good for Wink . But when at a tourney we need to help set the standard of play. Raise the bar so to speak and not be a TFG. It's all about promoting the hobby in a positive light and having some fun while pounding your oppenent into the ground with a big ol' ugly stick while you laugh hysterically spitting flem everywhere....sorry I kind of lost it there, I'm better now Suspect Smile

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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Wed May 11, 2011 7:15 am

Warmonger wrote:
while pounding your oppenent into the ground with a big ol' ugly stick while you laugh hysterically spitting flem everywhere....sorry I kind of lost it there, I'm better now Suspect Smile

monger;
it'll be ok now. I have some 'gentlemen' who are very interested in the 'thoughts' you are having...they'll be around to pick you u...I mean meet with you...sometime in the next few days.
They are easily identifiable with their white coats, and the big white van they will be driving.
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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Wed May 11, 2011 8:10 am

Warmonger wrote:
Well it definiely needs a FAQ from GW I think thats apparent. So until then we will have to deal with whatever the TO decides. I have sent the questions to Makari and am waiting on his answer. Regardless of the answer ML members should deal with it accordingly which is is to say without whinning and crying until an official FAQ is released. This may result in different TO's ruleing it different and so we must deal on a tournament to tournament situation. Wink

You seem bothered by something? Anything in particular?

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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Thu May 12, 2011 7:51 am

He is spitting flem!!!!!!!! Razz Razz Razz
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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Thu May 12, 2011 6:44 pm

Edge wrote:

Quote :
You seem bothered by something? Anything in particular?

No, not really. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: DE Questions   Sun May 22, 2011 10:59 am

Note;
did makari ever make a ruling on this particular interaction for CAG?
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