HomeUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Necron Firing Arcs

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Drkmorals
Admin
avatar

Posts : 517
Join date : 2011-05-29
Age : 35

PostSubject: Necron Firing Arcs   Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:25 pm

Hey guys one of my buddies sent me this question and I thought I would share it with the group and see what everyone thinks. Please see below.
-------------------------

Yo,

So Ed and I played a game where he had a Doooooomssssssssday Ark. He
said that they were sponsons so they can fire straight forward. I
think it was intended for the Vehicle to fire on "broadsides aka
sides" with the gauss guns.

What does everyone else think? I think there needs to be a FAQ.

Same goes with Monolith. A Monolith has 5 guns. If you turn it to a
corner pointing at a unit, can you shoot 3 of the Gauss Arcs? What if
you are facing the door at someone. Can you point that at someone and
get 2 Arcs or more?



-------------------

My initial thought is that you can easily fire three guns off the mono if you are angling it like he is saying. I have no real issues with that. However the Barges are a bit different. I haven't seen exactly how long these things are. I would guess from seeing the model in pictures and the way the rules are it was intended to be like a pirate ship. You could fire off the side of the ship into something and maybe into another unit on the other side. I would think that if you faced the ship directly at someone you wouldn't be able to fire all 3 of the guns because of LOS issues?

Would love to hear some others thoughts? Do I have this all wrong?
Back to top Go down
Crawling Chaos

avatar

Posts : 268
Join date : 2011-11-07
Age : 40
Location : Kenwood

PostSubject: Re: Necron Firing Arcs   Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:49 pm

If it was a sponson, I believe it would say so. In that absence, you have to look at the model. The guns don't look like they move, so I would call them hull mounted. (45 degree arc)

As far as the monolith, I'd treat them like the sponsons on land raider. Use the diagram in the BRB as a guide for determining LOS.
Back to top Go down
Exitus Acta Probat

avatar

Posts : 1062
Join date : 2011-05-02
Age : 48
Location : Dayton, Ohio

PostSubject: Re: Necron Firing Arcs   Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:04 am

Crawling Chaos wrote:
If it was a sponson, I believe it would say so. In that absence, you have to look at the model. The guns don't look like they move, so I would call them hull mounted. (45 degree arc)
<---this


I take it the extra step with mine, accepting that (though it is a 'bank' of weapons) the descriptor defines the 'weapon' as 5 slaved flayers, and will be checking arcs for each barrel to determine LOS and number of flayers engaging.
It may not have a direct corollary/precedent, but is the most fair way of handling the system unless(until?) they see it as necessary to FAQ.
I wouldn't necessarily hold my breath for them to be FAQ'd, look how long the Deffrolla took...and that was a result of the GW people not seeing a need and recognizing the debate as even going on (as they thought it was perfectly clear to everyone their intent).

Back to top Go down
http://exitusactaprobat1.blogspot.com/
Hand of Dume

avatar

Posts : 1581
Join date : 2010-06-19
Age : 47
Location : Wastelands of Miami County... ie Tipp City

PostSubject: Re: Necron Firing Arcs   Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:21 am

I'd have to agree with EAP on this. LOS for each flayer.

_________________
MARTIAL LAW- FTW

Let's just play the friggin' game and have some fun!
Back to top Go down
Edge

avatar

Posts : 1428
Join date : 2010-06-20
Age : 44
Location : Centerville, OH

PostSubject: Re: Necron Firing Arcs   Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:54 am

I disagree with EAP/HoD on this one.

The weapon loadout description p.91 states 'Two gauss flayer arrays'.
This indicates to me '2' weapons not '10'.

The weapon description p.53 states 'Two gauss flayer arrays - The Ghost Ark has two separate arrays of five gauss flayers - one along each flank - enabling it to 'broadside' enemy units. The two arrays can shoot at different targets, although all guns in the same array must shoot at the same target.
This indicates to me '2' weapons not '10'.
The last sentence will confuse people; you can fire each array at a different target within 45 deg arc from vehicle side, measured from front and back of the array, not each 'gun'.

Sorry EAP/HoD, but if anyone tried to fire each gun in the array separately I'd call shenanigans...

If say for instance...a rhino is blocking the fire lane to half or more of a Hurricane Sponson on a Land Raider, The top 'gun' in the sponson can clearly see the target.
Have you ever not fired the Hurricane Sponson?
Fired the Hurricane Sponson with cover saves available?
Fired '1 gun' from the Hurricane Sponson?

_________________
Declaring Martial Law - FTW
http://40k-edge.blogspot.com/
Back to top Go down
http://40k-edge.blogspot.com/
Exitus Acta Probat

avatar

Posts : 1062
Join date : 2011-05-02
Age : 48
Location : Dayton, Ohio

PostSubject: Re: Necron Firing Arcs   Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:04 pm

and though I will not say you are wrong, I will say I still disagree

under the description for the array it specifically states that each array is made up of 5 flayers...
nope that my statement is not for advantage, but for insuring I am not gaining an advantage by claiming that if I have 1 of the guns in arc, I can engage a target with all 5 ...nor am I saying anything but 1 array can engage a separate target.

note also that my statement is in reference to determining ARC LOS, not any advantage shooting perception.
A hurricane boulter is designed in such a way that arc is a non issue (beyond the vertical), hence my comment about precedent.
finally noting, also, that a hurricane bolter IS contained within a sponson, which is the source of the original question...the problem being that the weapons in question are hull mounted, and thus not covered under that auspice
Back to top Go down
http://exitusactaprobat1.blogspot.com/
Hand of Dume

avatar

Posts : 1581
Join date : 2010-06-19
Age : 47
Location : Wastelands of Miami County... ie Tipp City

PostSubject: Re: Necron Firing Arcs   Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:59 pm

I'm not saying each flayer would fire at a different target, but that each flayer must check line of sight. I agree the whole array should fire at the same target.

_________________
MARTIAL LAW- FTW

Let's just play the friggin' game and have some fun!
Back to top Go down
Edge

avatar

Posts : 1428
Join date : 2010-06-20
Age : 44
Location : Centerville, OH

PostSubject: Re: Necron Firing Arcs   Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:36 pm

Didn't say you were firing 10 guns...more that you were treating them as 10 guns when they are 2 arrays (of 5 guns each) nor did I mean you were gaining advantage.

When measuring from a sponson, weapon, array...if the target is 50% obscured all weapons fire but target has cover save. There is no ruling that a part of the weapon/sponson/array can't fire.

The firing phase is a dynamic one and really shouldn't be taken so literally to delineate if each weapon in an array can fire. The entire array (of 5 guns) can fire at the target if the target is in the firing arc, measured from the front of the array to the back of the array. 45 deg of side of vehicle since the array is hull mounted.

The rules for shooting are not that cumbersome and really shouldn't be.

_________________
Declaring Martial Law - FTW
http://40k-edge.blogspot.com/
Back to top Go down
http://40k-edge.blogspot.com/
Exitus Acta Probat

avatar

Posts : 1062
Join date : 2011-05-02
Age : 48
Location : Dayton, Ohio

PostSubject: Re: Necron Firing Arcs   Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:48 pm

excepting that your entire argument is predicated on similar concepts being applied from clear precedents...something we do NOT have here.
What we have is a truly different system, and can very easily be prone to rules interpretations along unique lines.

the descriptor, in the 'flayer array' rules make no statement of measuring arc from between the front and rear flayers in a given array...in fact the one stricture we do have states that we can only shoot the guns in a given array at the same target.
"...two arrays can shoot at different targets, although all guns in the same array must shoot at the same target"

to quote further,
"...has two separate arrays of five guass flayers-one along each flank-enabling it to broadside enemy units."
similar wording, I will grant, to the Hurricane Bolter descriptors...excepting the fact that all the rules governing ARC are covered under the rules that define how that particular weapon works...
"each hurricane bolter consists of 3 twin linked bolters, that are fired as a single weapon" (sw codex pg 45).
The flayer array is unique, in that it is a 'system' that is hull mounted...not a single weapon per-se, but a system.

By your argument, if ONE of the barrels is in rapid fire range, then all of them will get to double tap...and THAT alone will cause a GREAT deal of argument at the table.

finally, with GW, function follows form (for the most part), and generally they have written rules for model design as often as designed models for the rules...and then cleaned it up when necessary with FAQ's.
The form of the Ark models really creates a separation within a 'system' that hasn't been seen before, and to avoid any hurt feelings/potential arguments etc etc...I will refer to how I started my take on it which was (roughly)
This is how I am handling it FOR ME...
in order to play as literally as possible, the rules tell me to handle each gun as a slaved weapon that must target similarly to an infantry unit (each weapon has same target, each weapon must have its individual range criterion met) with the addition of ARCs as defined by hull mounted weapons...
So simplified,
I'm treating the flayer arrays like a unit firing, without the 360degree flexibility...as that is the closest thing to shooting precedent that I can find that is comfortable to me.


(note; I find your argument that the shooting phase rules "are not that cumbersome and really shouldn't be" off target at best, even this far into 5e some of the unnecessary elements introduced still cause issue amongst some players...)
Back to top Go down
http://exitusactaprobat1.blogspot.com/
Edge

avatar

Posts : 1428
Join date : 2010-06-20
Age : 44
Location : Centerville, OH

PostSubject: Re: Necron Firing Arcs   Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:37 pm

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

I appreciate the extensive explanation Mke. No hard feelings intended or taken.

If I can see 1 or 2 models in a unit I can hit the entire unit of individual models through firing and not just shoot the ones I see. By logic if the array has TLOS from any gun in the array the entire array can shoot because it is 1 weapon and not 5 guns.

If any gun of the array is in rapid fire range then yes all of the guns in the array will fire at rapid fire.

In the description for the ark, it says 2 gauss flayer arrays. To me this means 1 weapon made up of 5 guns firing together. Precedent is the Hurricane Sponson and is not a different system.

Can we agree that if the ark suffers a weapon destroyed result one entire array would be destroyed?
OR is it that the Ark has 10 guns so needs 10 results...

_________________
Declaring Martial Law - FTW
http://40k-edge.blogspot.com/
Back to top Go down
http://40k-edge.blogspot.com/
Exitus Acta Probat

avatar

Posts : 1062
Join date : 2011-05-02
Age : 48
Location : Dayton, Ohio

PostSubject: Re: Necron Firing Arcs   Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:08 pm

unique system, unique weapons...
1 destroyed result = one flayer array

but, like co-axial weapons, ranges can be differentiated (though this is an APOC based look-see, it's still within the purvue of GW rules writing)...though that also is a stretch, as the co-ax weaponry have different ranges (ie;autocannon slaved to a battle cannon on the baneblade) they are also measured from each individual weapon barrel, which can produce the result of the battlecannon being within 48", but not the autocannon...and also destroyed as a pair...and if (though difficult, not impossible) LOS is blocked/out of arc to one, but not the other, they ARE then handled separately and do not grant the 'out of LOS' weapon the ability to fire.
So, if I want to fine tune it a bit more, as it doesn't really have a precedent with the Hurricane bolter (which states its own rule as to how the weapons fire) it would fit more in the co-ax rule as a corollary.
At that point, no I don't believe one flayer in the array being within 12" would allow the entire array to double-tap.

Again, as it is a hull mounted system, with no overriding targeting rule (eg;Hurricane Bolter), and is NOT a sponson or turret...I believe it is unique in the framework of the rules.


no offense intended, or ever taken...you know how I get when I'm in a RAW/RAI (or any other) rules debate...I just go with the raw data, which sometimes makes my writing a bit cold.
Nor, as I say frequently, do I think YOUR take is stupid baseless or blatantly wrong...I merely will explore every facet of WHY I think I'm correct, until I think I don't have any further foundation on which to stand.
At THIS stage, I still think my foundation is concrete.

finally, I do NOT think I know the RAI here...that's where I'm questioning it. I usually feel confident on my take of RAI, and don't like that I am uncertain of it with the array... and why I'm playing it out per the least favorable rules interpretation I can with my Necrons. I did the same with my beast-packs(ie; pain tokens).


Last edited by Exitus Acta Probat on Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
http://exitusactaprobat1.blogspot.com/
Edge

avatar

Posts : 1428
Join date : 2010-06-20
Age : 44
Location : Centerville, OH

PostSubject: Re: Necron Firing Arcs   Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:28 pm

Offense part was meant more for others. *cough* moderators *cough*

I don't take offense from what is said, especially from you old man! Very Happy I don't have feelings. Laughing

I can see the merit of the Coaxial bit but I think the RAI is like the Hurricane Sponsons. I guess we will see in 6th ed...

_________________
Declaring Martial Law - FTW
http://40k-edge.blogspot.com/
Back to top Go down
http://40k-edge.blogspot.com/
Exitus Acta Probat

avatar

Posts : 1062
Join date : 2011-05-02
Age : 48
Location : Dayton, Ohio

PostSubject: Re: Necron Firing Arcs   Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:38 pm

Mods???

mer?

we have mods???

jesus tap-dancin crimminey! okay, I picked the wrong forum...gotta get off before I have a 'Janet Jackson' level malfunction, and get hit with a serious fine! Wink

the original query was answered,
ie;are they sponsons or hull mounted...thus restricting the overall arcs to 45deg off sides...we all agree on that.

what you and I (and HoD was sucked into) were going rounds on was what I think they'll end up functioning as, or without an FAQ/rules shift, how I will deal with mine in friendly games, and in tourney (unless the entire community thinks I'm a complete dolt and gimping myself after months of no FAQ).

When there is question, I will not force an opponent to abide by my view of it if they disagree...it's just not worth the argument, particularly when the water is muddy (IMHO) and the weapon system itself is desperation defense, or a suicide gambit, to take full advantage of.
Back to top Go down
http://exitusactaprobat1.blogspot.com/
Edge

avatar

Posts : 1428
Join date : 2010-06-20
Age : 44
Location : Centerville, OH

PostSubject: Re: Necron Firing Arcs   Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:46 pm

Exitus Acta Probat wrote:
(unless the entire community thinks I'm a complete dolt and gimping myself after months of no FAQ).

When there is question, I will not force an opponent to abide by my view of it if they disagree...it's just not worth the argument

Like S6 Psycannons? Laughing

Shouldn't you be in bed by now anyways? Princess keeping you up?

_________________
Declaring Martial Law - FTW
http://40k-edge.blogspot.com/
Back to top Go down
http://40k-edge.blogspot.com/
Drkmorals
Admin
avatar

Posts : 517
Join date : 2011-05-29
Age : 35

PostSubject: Re: Necron Firing Arcs   Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:53 pm

Holy crap man I think sometimes you guys just like to argue =P I want to say thanks for everyone who spoke up. I really wanted to get a broad idea of how people felt about this and really our club is great because we can get several opinions I trust to hash out rules issues.

I think both sides of the point have good arguments and both aren't really wrong with the information we have at hand. I thought about this, read up on several rules, came back here and read through this series of posts again and I have to say I think that at the end of the day they are going to rule it the way Edge says. Its a single weapon system and I can't think of any other time in the game that you would take away shots because you don't have TLOS from the barrels of the same gun. Different systems on a vehicle yes. Different units in a squad yes, but being one system I think you get all or nothing. Now I see it is a unique system but it doesn't have any rules that says it doesn't follow the precedence already set by other weapon systems. I think at the end of the day they will rule it that way.. However I will say if you shoot it forward or behind you its going to be stupid easy to get cover from it lol. Plus either way its 10 bolters nothing game breaking.

Now Mike and Edge can stop bickering like old men and go play with your little babies. =P
Back to top Go down
Exitus Acta Probat

avatar

Posts : 1062
Join date : 2011-05-02
Age : 48
Location : Dayton, Ohio

PostSubject: Re: Necron Firing Arcs   Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:22 pm

Edge wrote:


Like S6 Psycannons? Laughing


BITE ME! Wink

In retrospect, and after sleeping, I am going to concede simplicity for playability...
I still think it is more like a co-axial system, but your point about over-complicating things gives me pause.
Your beginning arguments against made it seem as though you thought I was trying to game it for advantage, and though that was furthest from my mind...I can be CERTAIN you would not be the only one.
We are a suspicion laden lot, humanity, and when presented with something that doesn't fit into our perceived notion of how something should be, we assume someone is trying to pull the proverbial 'wool over our eyes'.
Any attempt to explain my take begins with a proof of foundation, which would put anyone on guard against the potential of gaming the system for advantage...which makes the 'foundation' part of my earlier arguments shaky from the listener's POV.

If THAT is the case, then I have to assume RAI may be opposite my RAW perspective, and to prevent potential disgruntlement I will play it as a single weapon.

I still think, by RAW, the waters are muddy...and I still think it SHOULD be played the way I postulated...but, good sir, I concede to common sense application over complexity (and will now go and read my Star Fleet Battles rulebooks, for a sense of clarity-of-rules and right-with-the-universe).


Last edited by Exitus Acta Probat on Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
http://exitusactaprobat1.blogspot.com/
Drkmorals
Admin
avatar

Posts : 517
Join date : 2011-05-29
Age : 35

PostSubject: Re: Necron Firing Arcs   Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:28 pm

Quote :
(and will now go and read my Star Fleet Battles rulebooks, for a sense of clarity-of-rules and right-with-the-universe).

OOOO low blow good sir... low blow.. LOL
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Necron Firing Arcs   

Back to top Go down
 
Necron Firing Arcs
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Boiler Firing up Constantly
» Bolier Firing but then stopping
» Boiler mate 2, boiler not firing
» Boiler not firing - Icos HE15+boilermate 2000
» boiler not firing

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Martial Law :: Rules and other 40k Questions-
Jump to: