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Warmonger

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PostSubject: 6e Night Fighting and Reserves   Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:56 pm

I'm sure by now everyone has read thru the 6e BRB at least once. So what do you think? There has been a lot of changes, a lot of additions and some subtractions. There are all kinds of discussions on the Internet about this and that, allies and fortifications, Forgeworld or not. The rules lawyers are out in force debating all kinds of situations trying to determine some sense out of the abstract. I've been finding it refreshing for the most part especially considering the drought of damn near anything useful/entertaining in the first half of the year.

The changes while many and varied I don't think they are terrible or anything just definitely different. While there are some things I don't particulary care for as with 5 edition over time these will all seem to be the norm and 5e will become blurry with age.

A couple of changes I haven't seen any discussion on (they may be out there I just haven't seen any) is Reserves and Night Fighting. Some significant changes and while the rules seem cut and dry the changes to them are huge. Are they game breakers...no but can definitely change the way some may play their lists.

Night Fighting:

Old Rules: ...After selecting a target, but before a unit fires, a check needs to be made to see if the firers can clearly spot their target through the darkness. Roll 2D6 and multiply the result by 3, then measure the distance...If the distance between the firing unit and their target is higher than the total rolled, the unit cannot fire at all in this shooting phase...

New Rules: ...The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away...Units between 24" and 36" inches away are treated as having the Shrouded special rule. Units between 12" and 24" away are instead treated as having the Stealth special rule. Units less than 12" away can be shot normally.

Add in the fact that Night Fighting can occur in every game, some big changes. Are they good or bad? Assault armies aren't going to like them much but shooting armies probably still will. I personally think they were nerfed. While you may have increased cover saves across the board - "bonus" sure but I think that will make NF just meh certainly for the first turn and the last turn is always less significant. We'll just have to see how it plays out. Do you think we'll see more or less of Imotekh and solar pulses.

Reserves:

Another big change. I think they stole this one from FoW. Now instead of picking and choosing units for reserve we are stuck with a version of Daemon deployment. I think this one is big. You want stuff in reserves? Well pick half your army and go to it. No more weak units hanging out in reserves hoping for a late game entrance. This one will effect more armies than the NF change (or at least how people use them) and maybe to a lesser degree in composition. We will certainly see less units in reserves.

Ok, let's start over. What about the no assaulting from reserves. Yea...Yea that's what I meant. Embarassed Must have been one of those late night deals. This hurts my DE, actually destroys it sence it was WWP based. Crying or Very sad Genestealers and the fancy reserve guy for the Orks get hurt by this also. There is probably more but those are just a few off the top of my head. What other effects do you see from this change?

Did these stand out to you? Or were they just another change? Could just be me as both these things negatively effected my old lists. Am I displeased with this...not really as I expected my army to have to evolve for 6e.



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Exitus Acta Probat

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PostSubject: Re: 6e Night Fighting and Reserves   Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:51 pm

In the game I played, Night fight was in effect the majority of the game. It brought things into close-firefight mode, which benefited my Necrons...but I could see it being a good thing for a chunk of the current top-tier armies.
It hurts, as many things in this new edition, the backfield parking lot 'pew pew' armies...and primarily just those.

Reserves, on the other hand...well that is just frikking painful.
First turn alpha strike lists benefit from this greatly, as fragile fast armies have to BANK on nightfight to survive now (my DE are hating this particular rule).
I personally think it was a GREAT mistake, for both tactical play and Xenos balance.
That, coupled with the inability to assault out of reserves, pretty much killed the webway armies...very unfortunate, as those could be quite skillful and tricky to play.


I don't think pulses are a waste, by any stretch...they allow you to dictate when Night fight goes away (in the case of a NF game), or introduce NF on key turns...just as they do now. Not as devastating to the enemy for the most part, but still critical to some builds/tactics.
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Warmonger

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PostSubject: Re: 6e Night Fighting and Reserves   Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:23 pm

Yea that reserves deal screwed my DE since they are WWP based army. They will need a complete make over. Sad

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Edge

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PostSubject: Re: 6e Night Fighting and Reserves   Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:27 pm

Exitus Acta Probat wrote:
In the game I played, Night fight was in effect the majority of the game. It brought things into close-firefight mode, which benefited my Necrons...but I could see it being a good thing for a chunk of the current top-tier armies.
It hurts, as many things in this new edition, the backfield parking lot 'pew pew' armies...and primarily just those.

I don't think pulses are a waste, by any stretch...they allow you to dictate when Night fight goes away (in the case of a NF game), or introduce NF on key turns...just as they do now. Not as devastating to the enemy for the most part, but still critical to some builds/tactics.

Night Fighting is ONLY on turn 1 if 4+ rolled, otherwise normal game until turn 5 when you roll...once NF comes in it there for the rest of the game.

I believe Imotekh still has uses and Solar Pulse is still viable. Imotekh will keep NF going and the Pulses give you the advantage, you know this.

Most armies can now plan for a potential NF game turn 1 and not be taken off guard when they come across Imotekh.

I anticpate seeing more Barrage weapons (IG Manticore, Colossus) as Primary and Ally.

Warmonger wrote:
Did these stand out to you? Or were they just another change? Could just be me as both these things negatively effected my old lists. Am I displeased with this...not really as I expected my army to have to evolve for 6e.

Exitus Acta Probat wrote:
Reserves, on the other hand...well that is just frikking painful.
First turn alpha strike lists benefit from this greatly, as fragile fast armies have to BANK on nightfight to survive now (my DE are hating this particular rule).
I personally think it was a GREAT mistake, for both tactical play and Xenos balance.
That, coupled with the inability to assault out of reserves, pretty much killed the webway armies...very unfortunate, as those could be quite skillful and tricky to play.

I agree with EAP on Reserves, it does hamper some ARMIES and some builds but strengthens others.

Necron Flyers, DE Webway or Flyers, BA Jumpers, Nid Stealers, VSM Khan, etc; all of these builds have to make changes to survive until the Reserves come in...or not Reserve at all.

Demons, Drop Pod MEQ, Nid Spores, etc; all of these gained a big boost from a constant Reserve roll and earlier turns for the entirety of the army to be on the table.

Remember if you table your opponent by the end of any game turn, viable reserves or not, game over.
I like this and will use it to my advantage.

I expect to see alot of Ally IG with Officer of Fleet...I plan on using it.

Having the ability for so many armies to come in from Reserve on a 2+ turn 2 is phenomenal and will change the tabletop direction for games to come. This will generate more 'balanced lists' and force players to grow instead of bringing a netlist and playing 3-4 turns (turn 2 or 3 and turn 4 and 5).

I expect to see more Flyers, remember that any unit forced into Reserve doesn't count toward the total units to choose half to keep on the board. Units with a DT Flyer fall into the non-counted...

Flyers are not that bad to play against and you can mitigate their limited movement direction with Board Control. They will be forced to fly off table into ongoing Reserves...hopefully not coming back because of time or turn call. Laughing

I anticipate Necron Flyer wing with Allied IG (Officer and Astropath) or IG Flyer with Necron Imotekh Flyers, will become a norm for many tournaments. Imotekh to protect the IG Platoon Chimeras and Manticore(s) and then turn 2 you have an entire army rolling on the board. If the opponent put units in reserve...you can wipe out whatever they have on the table.

I am really anxious to get on the table to see the variety of the armies across from me. No longer should I see the same 3 or 4 builds in a tournament.

Variety is the 'spice of life' and I love to spice things up!

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Exitus Acta Probat

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PostSubject: Re: 6e Night Fighting and Reserves   Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:37 pm

Edge wrote:


Night Fighting is ONLY on turn 1 if 4+ rolled, otherwise normal game until turn 5 when you roll...once NF comes in it there for the rest of the game.
!

Right...
No turn 1,
yes (pulse) turn 2 and 3
no turn 4
Yes turn 5&6(at which point, game ends).

so...most of game! :-)
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Exitus Acta Probat

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PostSubject: Re: 6e Night Fighting and Reserves   Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:00 pm

Edge wrote:


I agree with EAP on Reserves

Stop that, it doesn't fit your theme...

Edge wrote:
Necron Flyers, DE Webway or Flyers, BA Jumpers, Nid Stealers, VSM Khan, etc; all of these builds have to make changes to survive until the Reserves come in...or not Reserve at all.

Webway is just dead...unfortunately. The units that are resilient enough to not be at total risk of tabling before availability (in an army actually keyed to take proper advantage of a webway, that is) are only worth their points in that they will LIKELY stay alive long enough to benefit from the webway....otherwise, do not contribute as much to the overall force.
That is another example of where we are being (sort of) forced to take allies...I don't like having my hand forced. DE are now an ally/allying only army...
The others have to change, yes...but in an unsubtle fashion.
These changes are the direction of the 'fantasy-esque' money grab of HUGE blocks, BIG monsters and spam magic.

Edge wrote:
Demons, Drop Pod MEQ, Nid Spores, etc; all of these gained a big boost from a constant Reserve roll and earlier turns for the entirety of the army to be on the table.

Daemons, yes...the others...not so much.


Edge wrote:
I expect to see alot of Ally IG with Officer of Fleet...I plan on using it.

this statement is totally at odds with your closing statement...I think it's just going to take us a year, not counting odd 'dex jumps (like GK throwing the meta off) before we see a few core builds repeating the tourney top seeds.

Edge wrote:
Having the ability for so many armies to come in from Reserve on a 2+ turn 2 is phenomenal and will change the tabletop direction for games to come. This will generate more 'balanced lists' and force players to grow instead of bringing a netlist and playing 3-4 turns (turn 2 or 3 and turn 4 and 5).

Instead of a (sometimes controlled) trickle, forcing you to manage/husband your resources gambling against a clock AND the timely arrival of aid...before you are hammered to the point you cannot really cause enough damage...you prefer a rushing torrent of controlled firepower lending greater weight to who goes first?
5e was the edition of 'I think I want to go second, and manage my resources'...6e has the flavour of old 3.5/4e 'I go first, you lose!' (with the added edge of being certain half your opponent's forces are there to be victimized by your initial alpha).

Edge wrote:
Flyers are not that bad to play against and you can mitigate their limited movement direction with Board Control. They will be forced to fly off table into ongoing Reserves...hopefully not coming back because of time or turn call. Laughing

Yeah, the flyer panic of 2012 will fade...I just hope GW doesn't spam us with skyfire options, making these great models a brief spike in their profit margin.

Edge wrote:
I anticipate Necron Flyer wing with Allied IG (Officer and Astropath) or IG Flyer with Necron Imotekh Flyers, will become a norm for many tournaments. Imotekh to protect the IG Platoon Chimeras and Manticore(s) and then turn 2 you have an entire army rolling on the board. If the opponent put units in reserve...you can wipe out whatever they have on the table.

again, you belie your final sentiment.

Edge wrote:
I am really anxious to get on the table to see the variety of the armies across from me. No longer should I see the same 3 or 4 builds in a tournament.

lolz

Edge wrote:
Variety is the 'spice of life' and I love to spice things up!

well, I'll believe that in a year...or maybe two.
I'm not believing it right now.
Initial dust, flurry of BRB FAQ reactions (when they do the 'tweak' that will likely come down the pipe in 6 or so months) and then we'll be back to a similar set of constants.
The books will be mixed, but I am seeing...in my crystal ball...
SW
GK
IG
Necrons
(with a little flavouring from Orks here and there)...
Then, when CSM comes out...

nope, the same.

I'm a little pessimistic.
I am seeing a shooting game, that just got shootier.
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PostSubject: Re: 6e Night Fighting and Reserves   Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:39 pm

I am missing something.. The rule book says that you can only choose "UP TO" half your army not you have to REserve half your army or nothing as Monger is implying in his post.

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PostSubject: Re: 6e Night Fighting and Reserves   Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:07 am

DkM wrote:
Quote :
I am missing something.. The rule book says that you can only choose "UP TO" half your army not you have to REserve half your army or nothing as Monger is implying in his post.

No your not missing anything, that was a mistake Embarassed Guess I should double check my posts. OP corrected.

DkM wrote:
...have to REserve half your...

I thought Goldberg was the Teacher! Razz

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