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Warmonger

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PostSubject: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:03 pm

Do Necron units in a NS take damage when the NS explodes? Do they need to take a morale check? Do they get their RP rolls? I think this needs a FAQ but until that time what do you think? How are you playing It?

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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:07 pm

From my understanding, they just go directly into reserves..... no m check, wounds or RP. I've seen a couple battle reports on BoLS and they went directly to reserve. Other than this, I've nothing to quote from....

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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:11 pm

edit below, to get my 'mistake' off the forum...


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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:23 pm

there are times when I'm an idiot, and go off memory...if you read the prior post, ignore. I'm getting old, and yes a bit senile...memory told me part of the entry was something else. SO...

yes, they 'take it in the face'.

the results of a destroyed flying transport are irrespective of 'disembarkation/placing' with regard to damage to mounted unit.
per the flyer rules;
brb pg 81, 'if the flyer is alos a transport, any models within suffer a strength 10 hit with no armour saves allowed.'
AFTER the period, defining it as a second event...not necessarily contigent on the first, but contigent on all things operating normally with regard to the 'port (which we know does not actually occur with the NS per it's transport rules in the 'dex), we then are told 'survivors are placed anywhere with 3" of the blast...final position and in unit coherency'.

the NS rule for 'going back into reserve' is simply an override to the second statement, not the entire rule.

so, ouchy Necrons...my poor buggers(who are losing anyway, if I am worrying that much about it and dropping NS like flies).

I thought the other way, right up til tonight. then my kneejerk first response made me rethink and reread.
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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:36 pm

as to the RP/Morale,
I would say that neither rolls are made...as the unit is never actually placed on the battlefield, no 'battlefield' effects would apply.
there is no point on the field where you can place a counter.
furthermore, all the conditions relating to timing, and placement of RP models, key into positioning on the field OR (the biggie) requiring unit-coherency (which cannot be determined off-table...yeah, that seems silly but we have to follow this avenue due to a lack of 6e interaction guidance).

finally, though not wholly intergral to RP, you simply don't have to take morale checks off-table. you go straight from 'on board' (despite fluff in the entry) to 'in reserves'. do not pass go, do not collect leadership rolls, go directly to reserve.
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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:01 pm

I concur with EAP.

Yes they would take the damage from the Wreck or Explode Flyer rule.

No they cannot disembark due to NS rule so go back into reserve.

No they don't take a morale roll because they never hit the table.

No they don't get RP rolls because they never hit the table and therefore cannot be placed in unit coherency at the end of the phase.

I believe the RP roll might be FAQ'd to allow it as a type of FNP for the unit off table.

The way I see it, the only two methods to reliably remove Necrons from the table is Sweeping Advance from CC and blow them out the sky.

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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:55 pm

I expect an FAQ to address the entire issue.
WHEN, I have no idea...
RAI, I can see BOTH sides of the argument.

RAW, it's the only answer that's viable at this juncture, unfortunately.
It's too muddy to take to the table (considering the description page, stating that they are not actually on board the vehicle) and not possibly cause hurt feelings, but it's still the chain that binds.
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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:58 am

I never really thought about it much until I started seeing alot of debate on the internet. It came up at the last tourney in the last game I played but we played it as no damage and went on. I never realized there was any contraversey until later.

As it stands I see both sides and was just curious on what everyone else thought. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:58 am

As a good INQ I gotta poke my head in and gum up things. =P

I too can see both sides, and I tend to agree with EAP's statement about RAW. However I do want to point out that currently no large event is playing that they take damage that I am aware of. Not saying if that is right or wrong just saying what the current meta or norm is on a larger scale so to speak.

As always localy I believe its up to the Tourney organizer, and as long as we all know before hand it isn't a issue.

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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:06 am

yeah, that's why I said 'hurt feelings' could abound.

it's going to be an issue for a bit, and I hate to jump on the "everybody's playing it wrong" bandwagon ('cause let's be honest, we can't really play our hobby wrong...) but...
the RAW supports the damage.
I'm just irritated with myself for assuming otherwise up until now.
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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:03 am

This is ninteresting not only does this show perks to buying digital, but I wonder if there will be a trend in these getting updates before the FAQ.

http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2013/01/necron-hoax-you-tell-me/


No damage and no change to the way I have seen it played.
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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:17 am

saw that a day or so ago, but was waiting for confirmation...as I don't have a digital 'dex option, I'm android-powered.
VERY happy to see RAI pan out over the wording,
VERY unhappy to not see an FAQ come out in tandem...this bodes ill for preferential treatment of digital purchasers, as opposed to the general FAQ support that has been improving these last 3 years.
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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:30 am

I do use iPads and iPhones, where do you purchase these? Off
GW site or the app store?

If this is true... glad to see so.

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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:44 am

it is true, confirmed through multiple sources.
The problem with the digital is it is full price like the Codex.
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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:46 am

Very cool.... thought it should be this way... RAI

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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:04 am

GW selling digital products at not full price would be bad business for the company. They would be cutting into their own sales doing so. Not only that the digital products I have used so far have extras over the physical books that I enjoy. In some business it always makes total sense to price the same for digital products.

Also I am opposite I thought it was cool that there was a perk of getting updates before a FAQ not at the same time.
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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:12 am

I agree that paying full price should be the case if that is the only version of the product you buy,
but in the case of books, buying the original normally get you some kind of discount on the digital version if you get both.
I think it should be handled that way.
if the e book versions of these codices were available on all platforms, I would not disagree with you...per se... but restricting it to only a fraction of your customer base, is tantamount to favoritism ...and can further alienate a customer base that is already on happy with the parent company frequently.
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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:24 am

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy


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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:33 am

It must only be available on iPad and not the phone. When searched on my phone, it said 'search not found'

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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:47 am

I agree a small discount toward a digital copy would be alright but GW doesn't offer discounts for anything else? So you can't really blame them for that its not in the business model that they use. Also I don't think that they are not offering to android users. I more feel like they just went apple initially as a test of the waters. Apple is very easy to jump into marketplace wise, offers a good deal for companies with a very stream lined process. I can a hundred percent see them using it as a test before investing in coding two different environments or working with different platforms.


Also Mac I believe the codecs are iPad only and not sure you can open them on a phone at all.
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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:14 pm

the point ultimately comes down to, they are denying information for over 50 percent of the electronics market.
And not updating it easily accessible on their website, a mission over the last 2 years they have specifically stated they were attempting to perform. Regular easily accessible faq's.
it is another exceptionally ill thought out, and ill delivered, plan on their part. And I do not have Apple products, and I'm being punished for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:52 pm

They aren't punishing anyone lol and all the digital information besides some bells and whistles is all offered in a physical form. So everyone can equally buy it at any time. Now if they offered the digital content at a reduced cost to only Apple I could see your point about unfair. (however then you would be happier at the digital price?)

They have updated the FAQ's much better as of late and seem to be really stepping it up with 6th edition on the updates and rules in general. Do you not agree?

Also again the apple thing is a business model thing.. Apple has about 65 percent of the market share for tablets... The Codex are only on the tablet. The books from Black Library can be bought on amazon and other locations as well. It is my understanding that currently only the Codec is tablet only.. Having said that they have gone with the ONE company that owns 65 percent of the market... The other 35 percent is split very sadly among several companies.. SAMSUNG being first with what 9 percent? It makes good business sense to initially target Apple. Barnes and Nobles for example had less than 3 percent last time I checked the numbers.

Not to mention the Apple consumer base for the most part is the consumer that normally has the extra hobby money based on trends to be the people who you want looking at your products for future sales, also your getting the most bang for your buck, if there is demand you can clearly expand to android, and barnes and Nobles or whatever else makes sense. In the meantime if there isn't a demand you can cut your losses with minimal investment knowing if it wasnt' going to work there is no need to throw more money at it..

From a business view I can't believe you wouldn't consider this option. If we had been partners having this talk I would do everything in my power to talk you out of a complete digital release on all platforms.

I think you just despise apple and are looking through your angry Mike glasses today. =P


Also I apologize to Monger for the thread jacking as we bicker about business views >_<



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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:23 pm

Drkmorals wrote:
They aren't punishing anyone lol and all the digital information besides some bells and whistles is all offered in a physical form. So everyone can equally buy it at any time. Now if they offered the digital content at a reduced cost to only Apple I could see your point about unfair. (however then you would be happier at the digital price?)
perception is everything. if a public feels 'punished' for not purchasing a digital product, or having a digital media that does not jive with their marketing choice, it is fact (as far as they are concerned) that their portion of said market is being neglected (or 'punished').
and no, the digital information was NOT available at the time of this discussion.
was it a few days (nigh a week) later, yes.
in this information age, where people are plugged in constantly and want information as soon as it is available, is that the equivalent of an eon? YES.
this is a poorly handled marketing and sales decision, that is having ramifications further and further as long as this disparity continues.
the only people truly benefiting here are;
-those that already own apple products, and
-apple.
those out of the loop are feeling snubbed, plain and simple.

(note; I saw a screen pic of the download page 4 days ago, about a day and a half before general buzz hit the big-netz...still pissed me off to beat all hell)


Drkmorals wrote:
They have updated the FAQ's much better as of late and seem to be really stepping it up with 6th edition on the updates and rules in general. Do you not agree?

I did, until this incident.
if timed extremely poorly, it could very well alter how a tournament plays out...as some people come in (or build) aware (from, let's say a day or so early) of some changes that others are not.
that is not balance.
is it better than years past, yes...
is this a broken system, where those that don't have access to one medium get their information (and adapt accordingly) days later and have to wing it if timing is very poor? yes.

Drkmorals wrote:
Also again the apple thing is a business model thing.. Apple has about 65 percent of the market share for tablets... The Codex are only on the tablet. The books from Black Library can be bought on amazon and other locations as well. It is my understanding that currently only the Codec is tablet only.. Having said that they have gone with the ONE company that owns 65 percent of the market... The other 35 percent is split very sadly among several companies.. SAMSUNG being first with what 9 percent? It makes good business sense to initially target Apple. Barnes and Nobles for example had less than 3 percent last time I checked the numbers.
of that 35%, upwards of 30 of that is droid compatible...no, it is not a sensible option.
especially when dealing with a market that is rapidly becoming nigh solely based on the (likely) successors to the IPonopoly. Android is the future, and unlike coke v pepsi, android is expressed in multiple systems and platforms...
and as we also know that yes, they WILL expand (their material) to phones that can access their systems more deeply(or the phones will simply have no issue accessing tablet specific info soon enough), it's offending a base that is already beaten up by a company that has issues with public image in their own niche 'fandom'.

Drkmorals wrote:
Not to mention the Apple consumer base for the most part is the consumer that normally has the extra hobby money based on trends to be the people who you want looking at your products for future sales, also your getting the most bang for your buck, if there is demand you can clearly expand to android, and barnes and Nobles or whatever else makes sense. In the meantime if there isn't a demand you can cut your losses with minimal investment knowing if it wasnt' going to work there is no need to throw more money at it..
ah, so we ignore those that don't buy into the IPonopoly dogma and rhetoric?
or even better, we ignore those who are 'poor'?
they also tried a model of ignoring the 'veterans' for nigh a decade, on the premise that doing so would allow them to focus resources into newer (re;12yrs-ish) customers that only had mommy/daddy money to burn (and no bills to concern them). it worked...for a short while.
then the resentment in the vet-base put them in the red, and forced the older vets into other hobbies/ebay/online retailers/hobby 'clubs' (incidentally, this also happened to MTG for a bit...that last part, anywho).
you hit the whole base on a broad spectrum, and condense where things don't work. you do NOT risk offending part of a customer base by pandering to an elitist perception. damage control is always harder (on a global scale) than is slowly throttling back on an aggressive push...barring true disaster.
but marketing to multiple platforms couldn't have produced a 'disaster' as the 'product' already existed, and yes can be formatted.


Drkmorals wrote:
From a business view I can't believe you wouldn't consider this option. If we had been partners having this talk I would do everything in my power to talk you out of a complete digital release on all platforms.
and from a 'partner' perspective I would agree with you wholly...IF this were a full-court press, all new product, launch.
it is not.
if you argued against this under the circumstances GW is currently operating under, with the level of global penetration they have, I would have called you an idiot...with a smile of course, and over some good martinis, but still.
it was a carefully studied, expanding market.
ANY CEO/Marketing exec/Sales force worth their salt recognizes right now, that an already established base...with full readership, and a proven record of buying damn near anything new...is ripe for the pickings, and that ANY potential money left on the table now is less made in the long run.
EVERY book that comes out before a 'droid rollout, will decrease that 'dexes potential purchase turnaround on that platform by(estimate, based on experience in the sales field in this industry for upwards of 16 years...and careful trends and backlog purchasing patterns in niche markets from fan bases) 5-15%...EACH time a new book comes out after that the % will go up, until the new platform rollout, for the earlier books. Those percentages represent a staggering amount of money in the international scheme of things...even in our niche.
if THREE codices come out between now and a 'droid release, that's 150$ said player must spend to catch up.
as the odds are that person is only playing one of them, you are significantly impacting the probability that they will purchase an e-copy for perusal/tourney research.
with pirated materials/PDF's etc, that percentage (and this market) becomes even MORE subject to this predation.
it is a bad marketing/money call,
in an industry that can NEVER leave money (that competes with instant gratification expenditures/bills) on the table...EVER!




Drkmorals wrote:
I think you just despise apple and are looking through your angry Mike glasses today. =P

actually, no...
it's a perception I enjoy perpetuating. whilst I tease all my IPonopoly friends, and family, I don't really hate them...I just don't like the smugness/superiority that some project, as they claim theirs is superior for one reason or another.
I like my 'droid (and PC) just fine, but I see the merits of apple as well.

what I hate?
my favorite hobby company making obvious missteps that can hurt them, and lose for me access to a product I want (for those of you who remember their attempt to compete with army builder, and that utter fiasco...I LIKED theirs, but they failed to properly launch/excite/support it, and it went the way of the Dodo).
I hate them risking money loss in a tight economy, in a growing industry.
I hate it when they risk my hobby...'cause if Hasbro has to buy them out, they're dead in the water (and will be piece-mealed out for IP, or just cannibalized for LoTR lic)...for real real, not for play play.



Drkmorals wrote:
Also I apologize to Monger for the thread jacking as we bicker about business views >_<
Sorry, as well...but consider this 'jacked (as the answer has been made official anyway, in the new FAQ)
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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:56 am

I wish to note, that Charles and I argue all the time.
none of the tone of the previous post should be taken in any way shape or form as me directing any disrespect toward him.
I feel very strongly about th Very Happy e subject matter, as does he.
if the tone was a little overboard, I was trying to maintain a friendly bickering about a subject matter that we both have strong opinions about.

as I noted in my first part of the last rejoinder, perception is everything.
I do not want the perception that I think charles' thoughts are any less valid than mine...despite the fact I think he's wrong! ;-)
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PostSubject: Re: Units in Night Scythes taking damage   Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:29 pm

I don't think anyone thought that way Mike. It's all cool.... Even brothers fight/disagree sometimes... And some all the time.

Now both of you go to time out..... tongue Very Happy

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