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Exitus Acta Probat

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PostSubject: Deathwing Assault   Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:29 am

Okay, I don't remember where I saw it...but someone was making an argument that the DW assault rules enable those units to not count toward total units for reserves/on table threshold.
I'm not seeing it.
To quote pertinent(?) sections;
DA pg 44-
"immediately after determining warlord traits, tell your opponent which units are making a DW assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn. All units making the DW assault automatically arrive via deep strike at the start of the chosen turn-there is no need to roll for reserves."

I'm just not seeing an override here, but I can vaguely see where someone is trying to take it...but IMHO it's a looong stretch at the very best.

This is a wrong interp, correct? or am I missing something?
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PostSubject: Re: Deathwing Assault   Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:06 pm

The only precedent I know of is the Drop Pod Assault, a special reserve for your units.

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PostSubject: Re: Deathwing Assault   Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:08 pm

I don't have the codex but from what you posted it would seem they would still count but that kind of still hinders the whole DW army list thing.

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PostSubject: Re: Deathwing Assault   Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:12 pm

I think the argument was being taken from the 'automatically arrive via ds' ...I don't see an override, though.
If I could find the damned place I saw this, I could see where he/she was going with it and de-bunk (or agree, though unlikely) that stance.
It was posted on Wed is all I can remember for sure. grrrrr

I don't see it as an argument, but thinking someone might see something I didn't.



'Monger; no worse than the current(previous) codex. with 10x DW squads, and allies, it's nowhere near truly punishing (moreso than other armies, anywho) thank goodness.

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PostSubject: Re: Deathwing Assault   Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:24 am

It took a while to come up with this since I don't have the codex, but here's a thought or two on the subject.


Deathwing Assault: Units entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator Armor can choose to make a Deathwing Assault. Immediately after determining Warlord Trait, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing Assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn. All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn - there is no need to roll for reserves.

All these units are being chosen before the Deploy Forces section that happens after choosing Determine Warlord Trait section. Which the deploy section is when you choose who is being held in reserve. Also in the BGB it states that models who arrive by Deep Strike do so from Reserve.

Yes the DW are in reserve but they are not being chosen to be in Reserve in the normal way. They are being forced to Deploy by Deep Stirke, Which if you arrive from Deep Strike you arrive from Reserve.

The Deathwing units that are being put into Deathwing Assault are being done so before the normal time for placing models into Reserve which is in the Deploy Forces section after Determine Warlord Trait.

Because of this distinction that says Deathwing Assault is done Immediately after Determine Warlord Trait, it is forcing them to be held in reserve. Keep in mind this is only the Units that are doing the Deathwing Assault.


So furthering:
Yes, models doing Deathwing Assault are coming from Reserve because they are Deep Striking.
No. Models doing the Deathwing Assault are not counted for 50% allowed Reserves because they are being forced to be in Reserve before the Reserves rule happens in the Deploy Forces Section when Reserves are normally done. This is because it happens Immediately after Determine Warlord trait section which would then be before Deploy Forces section.

What do you think?

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PostSubject: Re: Deathwing Assault   Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:13 am

Can you explain that again.... Wink

Seriously though.... It sounds a reasonable to me.

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PostSubject: Re: Deathwing Assault   Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:23 am

HoD wrote:
Quote :
Can you explain that again.... Wink


Uh...No, I researched it, found it, and copy & pasted it. Thats all I can do, you'll have to take it from there scratch Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Deathwing Assault   Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:44 pm

I agree Monger. Same result I came up the past few days.

Good job!

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PostSubject: Re: Deathwing Assault   Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:25 am

My attempt to summarize...

==================
1. DW Assault units are chosen "Immediately after determining Warlord Trait" and "automatically arrive".

2. Reserves are selected during "deploy your forces" and "Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purpose of working out how many other units may due so."

Because the DW Assault units were selected based upon their special ability prior to choosing reserves, they become part of the "must start the game in reserves".
==================

I agree with it but I could see an argument starting over this one. An FAQ to clarify precedence would be helpful.
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PostSubject: Re: Deathwing Assault   Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:43 am

Correct Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Deathwing Assault   Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:31 pm

Warmonger wrote:



Deathwing Assault: Units entirely composed of models that have both this special rule and Terminator Armor can choose to make a Deathwing Assault. Immediately after determining Warlord Trait, tell your opponent which units are making a Deathwing Assault, and make a secret note of whether it takes place during your first or second turn. All units making the Deathwing Assault automatically arrive via Deep Strike at the start of the chosen turn - there is no need to roll for reserves.

So furthering:
Yes, models doing Deathwing Assault are coming from Reserve because they are Deep Striking.
No. Models doing the Deathwing Assault are not counted for 50% allowed Reserves because they are being forced to be in Reserve before the Reserves rule happens in the Deploy Forces Section when Reserves are normally done. This is because it happens Immediately after Determine Warlord trait section which would then be before Deploy Forces section.

What do you think?

highlighted word makes that argument shaky at best, unfortunately.
once you put in 'can', the must is gone. 'can' basically states they are able to start as an on-table asset...

ah well! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Deathwing Assault   Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:10 pm

Quote :
can choose
states you have a choice, once you choose the rest falls into place. It honestly makes no difference to me, I was just trying to help YOU out to find a way to play your DW. If you want to rules lawyer it to death by taking individual words out of context...fine, but you really don't need to, just don't play it that way.

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PostSubject: Re: Deathwing Assault   Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:28 pm

don't take it that way...I'm really trying to dissect it.

I don't THINK the argument I saw online (that I now cannot find) holds water, hence I need to beat it up as much as possible...
I guess that means I'm trying to get you guys to argue the position I WANT to be true, and see if I can poke holes in it every step of the way.

I like the tac you took, but I fear the 'can' preceding the rest keeps the player in the 'must deploy 50%' category.
I'd LOVE my DW to have that option, I don't WANT to knock it down...but to be honest with myself, and any future argument I may have FOR that to happen, I must do my best to sink it! Very Happy


Last edited by Exitus Acta Probat on Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Deathwing Assault   Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:34 pm

dewen wrote:

I agree with it but I could see an argument starting over this one. An FAQ to clarify precedence would be helpful.

I want to, and I love what 'Monger posted...but the arguments (without a clear cut answer that will either mollify the opponent, or a judge) are what I'm trying to avoid going in.

So...what the consensus (from what 'monger posted, and what Edge/Mack/Dewen seemed to agree with) is that yes, DW assault assigned units do NOT count toward 50% requirement?
ie; I can DS/Reserve my entire army if they are DW or flyers?
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PostSubject: Re: Deathwing Assault   Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:32 pm

EAP wrote:
Quote :
don't take it that way...I'm really trying to dissect it.

I understand that but I must say please provide a valid arguement not a single word taken out of context within the explanation "can" could refer to many things but means nothing by itself without context (unless we go with the noun version and then that makes no sense at all).

Regardless, I have provided a detailed "RAW" arguement for said discussion, if you still feel uncomfortable with it, this could be posted on some other sites for additional review or you'll have to wait for a FAQ.

EAP wrote:
Quote :
but the arguments (without a clear cut answer that will either mollify the opponent, or a judge) are what I'm trying to avoid going in.

Certainly understandable as this was probably deeper than I usually go as far as rules interpatation which is probably the same with most people but I believe it is accurate per RAW and probably RAI considering the army we are refering too, but I could be wrong as this is GW we're talking about.

EAP wrote:
Quote :
I can DS/Reserve my entire army if they are DW or flyers?

just remember 1 turn with nothing on the board and you lose. Crying or Very sad

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PostSubject: Re: Deathwing Assault   Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:52 pm

I saw it as 'in context', with the rule before it.
ie; as the rule states the units 'can' choose to make a DW assault, it is an option vs requirement.
in this case, I can see the simple option (vs being required to always be in DW assault mode) for a RAW argument used as since it is an optional state of declaration, and not required, then the res threshold applies.

the single word wasn't being flippant, but keying on that word describing how you declare the DW assault.

predicting GW rulings is like predicting outcomes controlled by chaos theory...it ain't happenin!

It's a deeper argument than I like, hence the need to dissect it into its constituent parts and pick at keywords.
basically, I'm seeing it from both sides...and I WANT one side to be correct (thus, I have to assume it isn't! Very Happy )

Yeah, but if I DW assault my entire DW force on turn 1, I WILL be on the table by the end of that turn Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Deathwing Assault   Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:54 pm

Warmonger wrote:

Regardless, I have provided a detailed "RAW" arguement for said discussion, if you still feel uncomfortable with it, this could be posted on some other sites for additional review or you'll have to wait for a FAQ.


already have, and getting the exact opposite reaction (as in, they DO count toward threshold).
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PostSubject: Re: Deathwing Assault   Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:24 pm

Hey Mike I guess we finally got a answer to this question. Well if the rumors hold true anyway. With the upcoming release of codex Chaos Daemons and the rumor of Daemonic Assault being gone, then I think it is safe to say that a true DW list isn't going to be possible either. Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Deathwing Assault   Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:47 pm

I think that's going to be a direct function of the actual Daemonic Assault wording (though if it's nearly identical, it may actually completely clarify as you hope/say).

I'm still waiting on a DW FAQ, because after your posting, some others siding the other way, the DW assault ruling still seems in flux...and more people are agreeing with what you posted, of late.

I just dunno anymore (not that I did before, thus the posting and further discussion), but to avoid ruffling feathers outside of friendly games, I'm going to try and just play it 'safe'.

Damn GW and their lack of clear wording/external input... Mad

(though I think my daemons are about to come back out and play, I'm kinda excited about the new play dynamic)
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PostSubject: Re: Deathwing Assault   Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:15 pm

EAP wrote:
Quote :
(though I think my daemons are about to come back out and play, I'm kinda excited about the new play dynamic)

Whatever it takes to get you to come back out and play is a good thing! Smile

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