When good blogs go bad...

http://exitusactaprobat1.blogspot.com/2012/02/when-good-blogs-go-bad.html

referencing

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/02/bols-academy-9-vehicle-shenanigans.html

I saw this on dakka...

Hard to believe its still an issue... especially at this juncture of 5e.

I would say the problem with the rule is that it's a WAAC type of move. Disaggree all you want, people just lining up toy soldiers and rolling dice are not going to even think of doing this. It just comes off as a slippery underhanded "catch-22" ruling so as to preserve the vehicle movement rules from becoming extremely hard to comprehend without pictures etc.

I don't have issue with it. I've made my piece with God about it actually. I know about it, understand it, but I don't use it versus the average "casual competitive player" that has been refered to on these forums. I reserve using those free 2" against asshats that don't deserve a handshake or smile. (reputation comdemnable).

I guess I'll leave it at that. That's how I feel about it. IMO, it's a dirty byproduct of vehicle movement that gives the user at least a 1-time movement advantage. The fallout for anyone using it against me is that it won't help you, as I'll have deployed praying you're not a giant WAAC doushbag but still expecting you to be since "it's a tournament, there's money on the line, and it's legal!", but from that moment on you better not ask for anything. No popping smoke, no running, no move this model back to move this squad first etc. We are no longer friends because you have defined yourself in my eyes as someone that knows waaaaaay too much about 40k to need "take backs" and such.

painnen wrote:

I would say the problem with the rule is that it's a WAAC type of move. Disaggree all you want, people just lining up toy soldiers and rolling dice are not going to even think of doing this. It just comes off as a slippery underhanded "catch-22" ruling so as to preserve the vehicle movement rules from becoming extremely hard to comprehend without pictures etc.

excepting that people just 'lining up and rolling dice' are the ones that discover the little nuances. we generally discover these things playing amongst friends on weekends at the FLGS (or garage, basement etc). it IS natural to find the boundaries of what works/doesn't, and what's legal/not, in any game...because by definition, a game is competition. 40k (and some others) are a little different in the hobbying/fluff aspect, but competition is at its core.
WAAC is a little different than seeing the rules interactions differently than others. WAAC is actively looking to win regardless of 'conventions' OR true rules. this is a byproduct of the rules function, one that many people discovered much earlier than DE coming on the scene (it just became more prevalent with DE due to the larger quantities of looong vehicles).

painnen wrote:

I don't have issue with it. I've made my piece with God about it actually. I know about it, understand it, but I don't use it versus the average "casual competitive player" that has been refered to on these forums. I reserve using those free 2" against asshats that don't deserve a handshake or smile. (reputation comdemnable).

I had a long discussion (on another forum) that encountered similar arguments, and my take was this.
if I'm going to a major GT (or some such) I am going to ASSUME that if I deploy without considering that tactic (against an opponent that can employ it, and I'm going 2nd) then I deserve what's coming to me. It is fairly easy to blunt on first turn, just accept a reduction in mid-range firepower in order to prevent a first turn charge.
Mid game, my opponent then has a slightly larger 'footprint' for charge, and I must adapt my movement accordingly.
if it is regularly being used in totally 'casual' play (as opposed to friends getting together testint tourney tactics etc) then its pushing friendliness, but expressing a distaste for it should correct...or you move on to a different 'circle'.

painnen wrote:

I guess I'll leave it at that. That's how I feel about it. IMO, it's a dirty byproduct of vehicle movement that gives the user at least a 1-time movement advantage. The fallout for anyone using it against me is that it won't help you, as I'll have deployed praying you're not a giant WAAC doushbag but still expecting you to be since "it's a tournament, there's money on the line, and it's legal!", but from that moment on you better not ask for anything. No popping smoke, no running, no move this model back to move this squad first etc. We are no longer friends because you have defined yourself in my eyes as someone that knows waaaaaay too much about 40k to need "take backs" and such.

Dirty byproduct?
I don't agree. it's part of a system of rules, which are imperfect but constantly being improved upon. GW has been working their editions every step of the way, tuning them as they go. each edition has introduced elements that appear simple to start, and then are revealed to be more complex (sometimes too much so, or not enough, or poorly thought out) than first thought. they correct, they FAQ and then they re-set.

it is obviously not something you have totally 'made your peace with God' about with this last statement.
seems to stick in your craw a bit.

but from the reverse side of the coin;
I go to an event.
I use this tactic (lets say with Land Raiders) that my 'circle' has been using since the first 6mo of 5e and generally considers the 'norm'.
you immediately go into your 'you are NO friend of mine' processes...
but when your turn comes up, you realize you forgot to pop smoke after declaring assault moves, but prior to moving them, and I say 'well, it's obvious you meant to...just do it, no big'.
does that fit your image of me as a WAAC player?

I do it all the time (tell my opponent to go ahead and do something they obviously meant to do, etc) in tourney or out.
but I also use that movement convention/rule.
I let people change their mind, usually give them the benefit of the doubt on cover (though I expect the same in return, I generally won't argue with them if they don't see my cover the same way) and often remind them of things that they forgot to move...
but I use that movement convention.

does that make me WAAC?

As I believe that conceeding any point is against a WAAC player's mantra, then no, I don't find you to be a WAAC gamer.

Your allowances of smoke, movement, etc are far beyond what I'd allow and I don't concider myself a WAAC gamer either.

My peace with God about this issue is that I don't go bonkers if someone uses it in a game. As I said, it's there in the rules for the lawyers to giggle about but it's not apart of the rules that I enjoy. Much in the same way as some don't like wound allocation or the perplexingly misunderstood multi-assaulting rules.

So yeah, it's cool. Use it all you want. As in Big Bang Theory, it's just a strike against ya in my book...a very big, telling strike but nontheless a strike.

painnen wrote:

My peace with God about this issue is that I don't go bonkers if someone uses it in a game. As I said, it's there in the rules for the lawyers to giggle about but it's not apart of the rules that I enjoy. Much in the same way as some don't like wound allocation or the perplexingly misunderstood multi-assaulting rules.

note that I was not taking personal affront...that's rare for me over rules discussions (though I have a tendency to get enthusiastic in those discussions).

where I took umbrage with the article (from BoLS) ultimately was less that the individual did not LIKE the rule, it was that he said it was cheating (more than once in the comments/article).
he presented it as a fact, on a blog that MANY go to for information now...as though we (players that saw this early on) had all been cheating since day one. a statement that, even those who don't like it admit often, is clearly wrong.

wound allocation was an early one, too, that caused a great deal of consternation.
multi-assault still does (and one of the least-well thought out 'systems' in the game...just poor application).

even this far out, I will always concede, 5e has some 'issues' with application...but I still find it a better overall rules-set than 3/4e.

we all play under different 'conventions' when we gather, and one thing I don't have issue with is discussing those conventions with new opponents and finding an accepted middle-ground.
a classic example (and core one) is discussing terrain interactions before any game, to insure any win/loss is clean and not due to confusion.
I don't know you, but if we met on the table and you expressed your distaste for that particular rule (which, seeing a bunch of Raiders, you might right off at least ask how I play them) I would adjust accordingly. with good terrain (uncommon in tourney, even still) I can get my cover elsewhere, or simply go null/min-deployment(which is usually safer for my paper-airplanes anyway!).
I just find null-dep incredibly dull in friendly games, and actually less 'sporting' than the cover-wall/pivot maneuver...more fun to play full games, not have just one player play the first two turns of 'twiddle-thumbs'.

at a purely competitive GT, on the other hand, if I chose to deploy...and did put down the cover-wall...I would assume that my opponent (as I would assume someone deploying as such against, would expect me) understood that tactic and would dep defensively against, thus mitigating it.

Painnen-

Meet our "librarian".... EAP.

Now that you have become a "regular" as of late, give us some insight... Location, armies, etc.

sure, to introduce myself, I'm Chris McIntosh and I'm originally from Springfield Ohio. I currently live in Fairborn.

I'm a child of 2nd ed. Waaay back then I played Orcs and Eldar. I came back after the atrocity that was 3rd edition, to play 'nids in 4th (nidzilla) then repurchased 'nids again in 5th. I currently have nids (in all incarnations), draigowing, purifier spam, dark eldar (venom or raider spam), and currently amassing Tau.

I'm analytical to a fault. I have a horrible fault in that I believe in my heart of hearts that the dice will always read 3.5 when rolled singularly or 7 when I roll them two at a time. I'm not sure how to stop that way of thinking. It generates alot of misunderstood angst when I'm gaming. I would never be concidered WAAC, as I tend to agree with LOS, cover, etc etc, but I have a nasty streak in me when the dice take a giant steamy mess on the tabletop. In a tournament, when a sportsmanship score is on the line, I take it in stride long enough to go outside and melt an old gretchin model to appease my anger. Any other time and I'll unconsciencely take advantage of a friend with a rant. Sad, but admittingly true.

I used to game latenights at the Tin Soldier and even less frequently at the original Bookery. Nowadays I play as much as I can (work be damned!). I've been in Epic Loot a couple times and I'd like to hit that place up more often. I got used to the location of Krystal Keep and the very very local Bookery for most of my gaming. I don't think I'd travel more than 2 hours for a tournament though. So I'd say Indy is as far as I'd travel.

CAG Bash was this weekend in Cincinnati, a two day event. You should have gone, we were missing the presence of Bugs... not a one in the house. Many of us were there to meet. Not to forget the fact ML pulled 1st place both days in the 40k tourney.

Just curious.... How did you hear about our site?

Feel free to visit any time and of course post.... we always welcome the input.

didn't hear about the site actually. Warmonger was talking about being on a team but gave no reference which team he belonged. I got interested since I've seen no such thing at any tournament I've ever been to and stumbled apon a link leading me here.

I haven't had the opportunity to play Eric one on one before. I took a friend of mine to a Team Tournament at KK. It was his first tournament ever. I think we went 2-1-0 (losing to eric and some guy he had roll dice for him /Wink) Eric played my partner at Epic Loot (using my GKs) and soundly beat him, so a bounty sits atop his head and I've been out to collect.

He talked about the CAG bash but my biggest problem is getting time off and alone on weekends. I have a daughter and the only time I get her is on fri, sat, sun. She's at her mother's during the week. So, to play in a tournament, I gotta make it worth my while. The last tournament was a product of coming home early from work and my daughter wanting to go to her grandma's house.

I wouldn't have taken 'nids to CAG anyways. 'nid scale very well, IMO, at 1500 pts. Anything more and you start getting Mech'd up lists that you can't handle well. I also tire of going 2-0-1, 2-1-0 at tournaments, so the bad matchups that 'nids can pull are enough for me to shelve them for something less dependant on me playing w/out ANY mistakes.

You know Monger... oh shite, bad move. The old guy's a celebrity around these here parts.

But seriously, we try to get the word out for others to check out he site. I was just curious how YOU can to pass. I, as well as others here, have the site address in their signature on other forums in hopes of enticing them to visit... or at least let them know we exist. Thought maybe you came across it.

Again, thanks for posting.

HoD wrote:

Quote :

You know Monger... oh shite, bad move. The old guy's a celebrity around these here parts.

That will be enough of that

Oh, his reputation proceeds him. It will be a damned good match, given the opportunity. I don't think I could accurately put my W/L/T record with my armies in my sig but I've won far more than I've lost. I am a shitty painter though. Broke my airbrush 2 weeks ago as a matter of fact and am patiently waiting for my wife to order me a new one.

I've got hopes of playing over in Newark on March 17th. I'm on vacation that week and it all depends if I can rip up my living room, hallway, and kitchen floors, then replace them with some pricey hardwoood lamenant stuff. I got 5 days to do it. Wish me luck!

Jonny and I are hitting up Epic Loot on Wednesday. Could be there for the better part of the day/night. I plan on getting a test game in at 1850 vs. him but if anyone wants a game then we'll be there.

Hand of Dume wrote:

Painnen-

Meet our "librarian".... EAP.

and by Librarian, he doesn't mean the 'cool' kind...he means 'old fogey with glasses who is entirely too verbose'...
though I am a far sight younger than the 'old man', eh 'Monger?

Exitus Acta Probat wrote:

Hand of Dume wrote:

Painnen-

Meet our "librarian".... EAP.

and by Librarian, he doesn't mean the 'cool' kind...he means 'old fogey with glasses who is entirely too verbose'...

Well that's a given...

I wouldn't say "Far Sight" younger but yea I guess you could consider me the old grizzled veteran of the bunch.

painnen wrote:

Quote :

Eric played my partner at Epic Loot (using my GKs) and soundly beat him, so a bounty sits atop his head and I've been out to collect

I think I remember this, Was this John running a Draigo list with Stormravens, where he was advised not to split his Librarian away from the Termies to kill a Cryptek and then the Cryptek stood back up and killed the Librarian?

sadly yes, though the advice came after I asked him how all his paladins were still alive yet the libby was dead.

again, to his credit, (god that's hard to say) it was his first TIME ever playing grey knights. He's seen me/played against me countless times. See, his daemons have fallen out of favor with him. My nids, GK, and DE all play so consistently that I think the randomness is killing him with the daemons. I can't discredit that. He also doesn't reallly enjoy his Chaos Marines now that there is talk about a new codex. that and they are just as boringly predictable as they have ever been.

I find Chaos Marines to be easy to handle not only because it costs them more to get the same as everyother marine player, but that build has been around forever.

Now his latest army is Necrons. Who can't argue with shiny and new?! Problem is by the time that tournament started, he didn't have nearly enough pts. to play them. So, he took the stormravens for a spin.

glad you beat him btw, he gave my stuff back and hasn't wanted to play them since.

Sorry dude, but CSM still has viable builds. It won day 2 of CAG bash this past weekend. And according to BoLS, is still winning major tourneys. I even went 2 wins and a draw at CAG. I would say its dependent on who is playing them.

Oh that Chaos is so easy to beat . Come on you know that.



I have won 2 tournies this year with CSM.

if you are refering to Duel Lash and Termicide, then i'm spot on.

i said no where that they are pushover lists, but that if you are playing Chaos Marines then I predict either x2 lash princes or sorcs, Abaddon w/a terminator host, 9 oblits, and plague marines in rhinos.

won't say some people won't play havoks or chosen or berserkers or GUOs but i will say it's just the fact that the codex hasn't producted enough variety to make me nervous anymore. (the all biker list would since I haven't seen that thing in 2 years).

I'm not even saying Chaos Marines are bad. Heck, at 1500-1750 they are waaay up the list as far as nasty codex'. I think at 2k and up, they are stuck "filling out" their lists. I think that's when lists go bad. to say even more, I might be playing Chaos Marines Mar.17th at a hobby event. Always wanted to play them in a tournament during 5th edition, this is probably my last shot.

It's all good. I play with several armies but the CSM army has made its way back into my flavor of the month.


I blame it all on Monger and HOD.

I think suggestions from teammates are all well and good but the better reason to pick Chaos Marines back up would be the re-arrival of sorts that Necrons bring.

Chaos Marines are very well equipped to handle Necrons. It is also completely obvious to say that as more and more other codex' morph lists to handle the Necrons, Chaos Marines will fair better vs. them as it should, in part, de-mech their lists. Necrons also are a second "new codex" not to have psychic powers. This will make Hoods and such much less neccessity and more of a "win more" item. Those that choose to drop their psychic defence to spend those points on killing shiny metalic automations better will become even more succeptable to the trickery that is most Chaos Marine lists.

We didn't imply that you referred to them as pushover lists, but that they were easy to handle. Personally I don't think any list or army is a pushover or easy to handle, it's based on who runs them. Tau and Bugs for example have been stamped weak codexes, but this past weekend at the Bay Area Tourney in California, it was these exact two armies that pulled out on top.

Wayno was blaming Monger and myself for introducing him to Lash spam at Adepticon a few years back, not influencing him to bring it back out. The reason to bring it back out would be due to the fact that it is a list that works well and even more so in the right hands. There are still too many lists out there that utilize psychic powers, so I don't think Crons and their lack of psykers will decrease the number Hoods out there.

Thanks for the input man.

well, to clarify and not sound like a complete elitist douchbag, I think chaos marine lists are in fact weak at higher point levels.

I think they are weak because even at lower point values they can afford all their heavy hitters. All of their heavy hitters are suseptable to the same type of weopons. Hence at higher point levels, it's easier to spam powerful weopons vs. spamming affordable/effective units out of the chaos marine codex.

Not only that but they don't have alot of versitility. They can be extremely durable, sure, but they don't change gears very well, IMO of course.

I guess you can say this stuff, "in theory" about just about any army but there are, IMO again, alot more threatening lists out there from other codex'.

Now, as to lower point level games, well, they are dead sexy. Why? as said above, they have all their tools. At 1750 they are pretty much on full power. Those that only want 2 basic troops might say that they are full go at 1500pts. (sorcs over princes might even get you to x3 troops). Lower point values also mean that lists like Draigowing,Purifiers,DoA, and Meltavets are toned down. Sure, they still have loads of tools to handle the choas rowdy bunch but a good 1st turn of shooting for chaos/bad 1st turn of shooting/moving for the opposition can really allow Chaos to how it's own.

I don't really know your collectives' playstyle but IMO, everything in a chaos marine army has to fullfill it's job or the list fails. If the oblits fail to de-mech the opponent, then Lash has no targets, if the rhinos go boom 1st turn, then the sturdy plaguies take fire the entire game and their eliteness ends up mitigated.

My feelings on Chaos Marines is that they are tough, expensive, and elite. They have very little pieces that can be willingly sacrificed and still win the game. They are not pushovers, they are hardly tabled, but I think that there are obvious target priorities vs. CSM. I think they can be focus fired down in nearly any matchup to a point in which they cannot win the game. However, their unwillingness to die easily will often mean that you won't be able to win either.

1500-1750 = A
1850-2000 = B-
2000-2500 = C-

That's how I'd grade them.